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Catholic view of Purgatory ... Is it real?

michael_legna's picture

Unsupported claims is the best you can do?

Michael:
Can we simply accept His sacrifice and be saved, letting Him do all the work?

Dan Fugett said -
Yes - now you're getting it.

Actually the answer to this question is a clear NO! Which you would have seen if you had attempted to respond to all the scripture I used to support the idea that simply accepting His sacrifice is not enough. Instead you do you best to avoid any scriptures which show your doctrine to contradict the word of God and then you try to interpret one verse in isolation to back your doctrine up.

Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one"

Interesting how you stop where you do - because the verse continues "can boast." This shows the verse is not contrasting grace with all works, just those works of which one could boast. In other words it is not speaking against works of loving obedience (how could it since the many verses I showed support the need for such works). Eph 2:8-9 is speaking out against works of the letter of the law aimed at meriting or earning salvation. Those are the works one could boast over (if they succeeded) but works of love cannot be boasted over.

Dan Fugett said -
None of the passages you reference provide any proof that we need to apply any work to faith in order to be right with God.

Interesting claim but since you make it without actually providing any analysis as to how you arrived at it it will have to be dismissed as unsupported.

Dan Fugett said -
However, they do support the teaching that real faith will result in Godly works.

Again that is an interesting claim, but completely unsupported by you with any analysis or evidence. All one has to do to see that you are wrong about this is to read them and my simple summary analysis of each.

Dan Fugett said -
The primary point Biblical point, which makes short order of a purgation concept, is by Grace are we saved

But then since purgatory is not a salvation issue, it only applies to those already saved this is not a contradiction of the doctrine.

Dan Fugett said -
... apart from works.

You are paraphrasing here, the scriptures do not say this. You are merely repeating your interpretation of a verse you are afraid to actually quote or even reference in this case because know when we look at it in detail we will find it is not talking about all works, just those which are done to earn or merit salvation and so does not apply to works of loving obedience that faith dies if it is alone from them.

Dan Fugett said -
The works referenced in the passaages listed are the result of genuine salvation and real faith, rather than a requirement we must perform on our own to be saved.

Then that ought to be easy enough to prove, instead of just claiming it with no support. I have already offered my interpretation of them, try doing a little work and offer yours to see if they hold up to review and analysis as a more consistent fit to all the scripture.

Dan Fugett said -
In fact, the teaching that mankind could perform any action until regenerated (saved or justified) is attacked by Augustine in his teachings against Pelagius. Pelagiamism and semi-pelagianusm were condemned by the RCC. Do you have the name of the Council where that declaration was made?

You have a mistaken understanding of Pelagianism. Pelagianism designates a heresy of the fifth century, which denied original sin as well as Christian grace.

The Church and I both hold that the ability to do good works, of loving obedience, is a result of grace, the grace than all men are given. A grace that makes it possible to seek God, but a grace that must be cooperated with.

This grace is not of the nature you envision. It is not some grace forced on just a few (who are saved) and withheld from others (who are therefore condemned).

It also is not the grace of justification, regeneration, or salvation. That grace comes later and is made available through the sacraments.

You need to understand the doctrine of the RCC and the heresies you try to compare it to a lot better before you express such ideas, because they are not the same. Do you not think the great theological minds of Catholicism would have missed this point over its 2000 years history if it were as you claim?!!




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