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Catholic view of Purgatory ... Is it real?

michael_legna's picture

We can stand on our own two feet despite learning from sources

JStaller said -
Michael, I in no way intended to portray you or other Catholics as unthinking drones, though looking back over my statements, I can see why my comments struck an angry nerve.

Oh, I wasn't angry and I knew you didn't mean what the implication was of your statements. But my point was if you deny the implication then you must see the issue of appealing to authority as a red herring. If I can argue the point, self limiting my evidence to scripture alone then it removes the influence of any appeal to authority just as assuredly as my ability to derive math formula removes my dependence on my high school teachers.

In debates here (where I am not merely correcting a misunderstanding of what someone holds to be the RCC position) you can treat me and my arguments as a scripture only Protestant (except for that whole eating worms thing :) ).

JStaller said -
I apologize for my thoughtless remarks. I have a lot of respect for your intellectual capacity and comprehension. It is because I have that kind of respect that I avoid pointless quarrels.

No need to apologize, and I don't think any quarrel is pointless, as even in those where neither side budges, someone invariably learns something - even if it is just that their understanding of the others position was formed prematurely. In many cases the ideas we discuss here may not take hold for years. That is why it is said One plants, another waters and yet another may reap the harvest.

JStaller said -
"Scripture interprets scripture" is a standard method of interpretation; however, I prefer, "The letter is subject to the spirit."

The question then becomes who is the judge of the spirit of scripture? If each person is to rely on their own spirit? Is that spiritual understanding not reliant on how conversant they are with all of scripture? So are we not back to looking at the sum total of scripture for its unified position? Or are you claiming the Holy Spirit guides each and every person to an understanding of scripture such that they can formulate doctrine for themselves, because that is not supported in scripture and it has a pretty lousy track record with thousands of different denominations full of sincere honest Christians all with an equal number of varied doctrines, which cannot all be right.

JStaller said -
Still, Michael, you can't deny that, even on your own power, as a Catholic Christian you are bound to reject your own conclusions that contradict the authority of the Church; if you didn't, you wouldn't be Catholic. You would be Protestant.

Just because I would submit to the derivation or presentation of facts in a text book I studied from does not mean that I always make an appeal to its authority when I am solving problems in my work.

JStaller said -
This is why I emphasize the difference--not because I think Catholics are drones, but because I think Catholics have accepted the authority of the Catholic Church. You can concede that point at least, right?


I can concede that but it makes no difference. You sound like my mother who wouldn't let me fix her toaster because I might kill myself after I came home from the military having repaired 35 KW pulsed radars for years.

JStaller said -
Looking forward to continuing our discussion.

Still I wonder what your answers to my previously posted questions would be -

JStaller said -
But the scriptures you provided certainly do seem to support further purification after initial purification.


If you admit you see purification after initial purification, then I have a couple of questions for you.

First do you also admit that this purification occurs after our physical death? Or do you need more support for this aspect of it?

Second what type of works do you think need to be burnt away in this purification? Is there some category of works other than sins that need to be burnt off in the purification you admit occurs?

It does not seem consistent to me for you to on the one hand say -

JStaller said -
You would have to show me that the spirit of the purgatorial scriptures was an extensive argument for a post-death spiritual purging ground. Having examined those scriptures, I don't personally believe that this can be done.

and at the same time say -

JStaller said -
But the scriptures you provided certainly do seem to support further purification after initial purification.

Which is it? How do you reconcile these two seemingly separate views?




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