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Christ removes all barriers to catholicity of His church through faith

JeffLogan's picture

Thinking about Christ and how He breaks down all barriers and spoils all principalities and powers which prevent true universality, true catholicity, of His body, the church...

Has anyone ever considered that a living faith is not achieved by adding our works to our faith but rather, that faith is a gift from God which being quickened by the Holy Spirit produces obedience (good works)? (The keyword here is "quickened". It would serve you well to consult your Strong's Concordance.)

Think about this verse and tell me what it means:

    And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. -Acts 5:32 (KJV)

But first, before you answer, tell me what this means to demonstrate your wisdom:

    "Love means never having to say you're sorry." (Love Story, The movie.)

Does it mean...

    1) Love does nothing to warrant an apology

    2) Love takes no account of injury

    3) Other (explain)

Now answer the verse in question:

    And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. -Acts 5:32 (KJV)

Does it mean...

    1) God only gives His Holy Spirit to those who obey Him

    2) God gives His Holy Spirit to men so they might obey Him

    3) Other (explain)

This is a discovery exercise and not a theological debate. Opinions are welcomed but scriptural support would be even better. Be sure to interpret your scriptures so we can understand how you are using them. Commentaries may be insightful but a paraphrase in your own words would be appreciated and would demonstrate you understand your subject matter.

JeffLogan's picture

It's a matter of correctly

It's a matter of correctly understanding what one reads.

JQ wrote, Whoa there! There is a forum for interdenominational debates but this is the Spiritual Discovery room. No need to challenge anyone here.

DM wrote, ??? Isn't it you who said that opinions must be supported by Scripture? Doesn't that apply to you as well? That's rather strange.

No, I didn't say that. I said, "Opinions are welcomed but scriptural support would be even better." Read the opening remarks again and you will see I am correct and you are wrong.

JQ wrote, I want everyone to feel free to express their thoughts without being challenged. This is a discovery room. Besides, I started this thread. Please don't try to usurp my privileges.

DM wrote, What privileges? Are you implying that those who start a thread don't have to support their opinions with Scripture?

No, you are basing these remarks on your misinterpretation of what I said. And you have done likewise with scripture which makes it very laborious to reply to your posts. For example...

I said,

And, there is nothing meritorious about observing special occurrences during the years. This is not a works gospel.

To which you replied?

Then why assemble on the first day?
1 Corinthians 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

It would seem that you disagree with me that Christ removed all barriers and here you are citing some verses in an attempt to support Sunday as a holy day of obligation. But let me quote you a few paragraphs from The Catholic Mirror published in the 19th century when this was a hot topic. I don't need to give rebuttal because your church has already done it for me.

Regarding Acts 20:6-7

    Once more, the Biblical apologists for the change of day call our attention to the Acts, chapter 20, verses 6 and 7: "and upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread," etc. To all appearances, the above text should furnish some consolation to our disgruntled Biblical friends, but being Marplot, we cannot allow them even this crumb of comfort. We reply by the axiom: "Quod probat nimis, probat nihil"—"What proves too much, proves nothing." Let us call attention to the same Acts 2:46: "And they, continuing daily in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house," etc. Who does not see at a glance that the text produced to prove the exclusive prerogative of Sunday, vanishes into thin air—an ignis fatuus—when placed in juxtaposition with the 46th verse of the same chapter? What Biblical Christian claims by this text for Sunday alone the same authority, St. Luke, informs us was common to every day of the week: "And they, continuing daily in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house."

Regarding 1 Cor. 16:2

    One text more presents itself, apparently leaning toward a substitution of Sunday for Saturday. It is taken from St. Paul, 1 Cor. 16:1, 2: "Now concerning the collection for the saints," "On the first day of the week, let every one of you lay by him in store," etc. Presuming that the request of St. Paul had been strictly attended to, let us call attention to what had been done each Saturday during the Saviour’s life and continued for thirty years after, as the book of Acts informs us.

    The followers of the Master met "every Sabbath" to hear the word of God; the Scriptures were read "every Sabbath day." "And Paul, as his manner was to reason in the synagogue every Sabbath, interposing the name of the Lord Jesus Christ," etc. Acts 18:4. What more absurd conclusion that to infer that reading of the Scriptures, prayer, exhortation, and preaching, which formed the routine duties of every Saturday, as had been abundantly proved, were overslaughed by a request to take up a collection on another day of the week?

    In order to appreciate fully the value of this text now under consideration, it is only needful to recall the action of the apostles and holy women on Good Friday before sundown. They brought spices and ointments after He was taken down from the cross; they suspended all action until the Sabbath "holy to the Lord" had passed, and then took steps on Sunday morning to complete the process of embalming the sacred body of Jesus.

    Why, may we ask, did they not proceed to complete the work of embalming on Saturday?—Because they knew well that the embalming of the sacred body of their Master would interfere with the strict observance of the Sabbath, the keeping of which was paramount; and until it can be shown that the Sabbath day immediately preceding the Sunday of our text had not been kept (which would be false, inasmuch as every Sabbath had been kept), the request of St. Paul to make the collection on Sunday remains to be classified with the work of the embalming of Christ’s body, which could not be effected on the Sabbath, and was consequently deferred to the next convenient day; viz., Sunday, or the first day of the week.

The above quotes were taken from:

    The Catholic Mirror

    [Catholic Sunday]


    (the editor of the Catholic Mirror of Baltimore, Maryland, published a series of four editorials, which appeared in that paper September, 2, 9, 16, and 23, 1893. The Catholic Mirror was the official organ of Cardinal Gibbons and the Papacy in the United States.)

If you read those quotes then you know that there is no grounds for claiming these verses have anything to do with a change of the 7th Day Sabbath to the 1st day Sunday. So there is no Sunday holy day of obligation to bar our way to Jesus. You are arguing now with your own church apologists.

I will address your other scriptures at a later time.

jq wrote, This required that the laws concerning the earthly sanctuary be changed. The shadow system was replaced by the true.

dm wrote, That is true. But that doesn't mean that the barriers between faith and unbelief have been removed. Nor that our salvation is out of our hands.

The barriers which men have used to blockade the way to Christ have been broken down such that everyone who will can come to Jesus just as they are--weak, sinful, dirty, helpless, without strength, hopeless, and heavy laden. Jesus allowed the Jews to try to save themselves by their own hand but they failed to do so. The new covenant changes that because God has promised to do what man failed to do with his own hands. Not that God ever left man to earn salvation with his own hands but unfortunately that is the way it turned out for the Jews--according to scripture. But under the new covenant God is writing His laws in our hearts and minds. Who would think to even place their hands on God's, as if a human could guide God's hands, let alone take matters into their own hands?

jq wrote, There is a power mentioned in Daniel 8 which it is prophesied will try to cast the heavenly Priesthood and the place of God's tabernacle to the ground. That is, after Jesus arose and went to heaven to sit on the right hand of the Father and to be crowned our High Priest officiating in the heavenly temple this power would think to bring all those functions back to earth. "Cast [them] down" to earth. Oddly enough it says this power practiced and prospered. But in verse 14 we learn that the truth will come out and God's heavenly temple will be restored (cleansed; be made right) to its rightly place in the minds of His people. But that is another topic.

DM wrotes, Yes, I've heard of it. Its all made up by people who add to Scripture their own prejudices. You aren't one of those are you?

I've heard you quote St. Peter where he writes that all scripture is inspired by God and is not of any private interpretation. Daniel is a prophetic book of which St. Peter spoke. If you haven't read this before then you may want to do so just so you can be better informed in the future. Then perhaps you wouldn't accuse Daniel of making this up because of his own prejudices. You can find it all in Daniel the 8th chapter

    9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

    10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

    11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice[1] was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

    12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

    13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed[2].

1) the word "sacrifice" has been supplied by the translators in their attempt to make the verses more plain. But the addition of that word which does not appear in the Greek text may actually add confusion. The daily is thought by some to be the ministration of the priest rather than the sacrifice itself. In this context based upon the timing of the fulfillment of this prophecy the daily must refer to Christ's ministry in the heavenly temple. It is Christ's mediatorial work in the heavenly sanctuary which this little horn power is attempting to cast to the earth--that is, bring it down to earth out of heaven where it belongs. But since we are not addressing that exact subject here we can explore this in another thread if you would like.

2) The word "cleansed" has been translated as "restored" in other translations. The idea being that after the 2300 days prophesied the truth concerning Jesus' work in our behalf in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest will be vindicated, justified, revealed, restored. Not that Christ's work was truly compromised by any earthly system but in the minds of people it has been effectively brought low to the earth. The eyes of sinners have been fixated on an earthly system which has substituted itself for the true which is in heaven. The mediatorial work of Christ has been "cast down" to the earth in the minds of men through the supposed substitution of an earthly system. This will be rectified after the 2300 days prophesied.

“The path of true piety is so plain as to require
but little political direction.” --George Washington,
re: absence of "Jesus Christ" in U.S. Constitution.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. -Proverbs 18:2 NIV