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De Maria's picture


Excellent message!

Since in the past, you have complained that threads get off topic, I have created this thread in order to respond to your message concerning the subject of the Priesthood on the 2 Tim 3:16 thread.

You said:
Let's not miss the true
Submitted by jqlogan on Mon, 2009-11-09 09:41.

Let's not miss the true significance of the passage.

DM quoted Matthew 12...

5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

DM writes - Right here in these bolded words, Our Lord equated His Apostles with the Levitical Priesthood. That is why they are guiltless of profaning the Sabbath. Because He is God and they are His Priests!

The earthly priesthood was but a shadow of things to come.

The key words there are, OF THINGS TO COME.

Jesus is the True Lamb of God and once His blood was spilt there was no further need of animal sacrifices and thus no further need of an earthly priesthood to offer sacrifice for sin. Jesus did not come to reaffirm an earthly priesthood, He came to abolish it by offering Himself as both our Sacrifice and our Priest.

You neglect several things.

1. If there is no need of an earthly priesthood, then there is no need for us. We are all priests.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

2. The Nation of Israel was also a Nation of Priests. Yet from the common Priesthood of Believers, God selected the Levitical Priesthood to offer the sacrifices of animals.

3. Therefore, the Nation of Israel had two priesthoods, the common and the ministerial priesthood. Making them a shadow of things to come.

4. The Church of Jesus Christ is contains the things to come. It has a common priesthood of all believers and a ministerial priesthood offering sacrifice for all believers. If it doesn't, it can't cast the shadow which produced the Old Covenant priesthood.

5. Jesus sacrifice eliminated the need for animal sacrifice. Not the need for sacrifice. Therefore we still need priests to offer the sacrifice and to consume the sacrifice.

6. Ministerial priests offer the sacrifice. All priests, eat the sacrifice.

Now, allow me to present a strong argument demonstrating from scripture that the death of Jesus abolished any earthly sacrificial system along with the office of the priest.

A more thorough understanding of scripture on this matter reveals many truths intended to set us free from the bondage of the rudimentary things which were to bring us to Christ and the shadows which pointed to the reality found only in Christ.

Notice the language employed in the book of Hebrews concerning this matter.

1. The old law of the priesthood was abolished in favor of a new law which established Jesus Christ as our Priest. The reason given is that Jesus was not a Levite.

The reason given? Are you suggesting that the Scripture is lying to us? Or are you suggesting that you know more than St. Paul on this matter?

But the real reason is that the earthly system was but a shadow of the True.

You sort of shoot yourself in the foot with that one, because the Jewish system was a shadow of THINGS TO COME. Therefore, if your system doesn't have the ministerial priesthood, then your system is NOT the THINGS TO COME.

A new law and a new priesthood
Heb 7:11-14 (ASV)
11 Now if there was perfection through the Levitical priesthood (for under it hath the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should arise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be reckoned after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are said belongeth to another tribe, from which no man hath given attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord hath sprung out of Judah; as to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priests.

The old law perished when the Lamb of God was slain on the cross. The veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom exposing the fact that God's presence was no longer among the priesthood nor in the earthly temple. Jesus himself had said, "Your house is left desolate." At first he had called it the house of God saying, "Mine house shall be called an house of prayer." But when they rejected him he pronounced it desolate--devoid of the presence of God.

This law of the earthly priesthood was contained in ordinances written to establish the Jewish economy of the sacrificial system.

Heb 9:1-12 (KJV)
1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
8 ...the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

But we are not to remain under the schoolmaster, not since we have Christ Himself.

Col 2:20-22 (KJV)
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

In fact, the Gentiles could not gain access to the sacraments of the earthly system. They were excluded. But when Jesus died he opened the door for all men. The enmity between the believing Jew and believing Gentile was taken out of the way when the earthly priesthood was abolished. Both Jew and Gentile now had equal access to God's mercy and forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ such that Paul would write that there is no difference between them.

Eph 2:15-16 (KJV)
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Furthermore, those ordinances were nailed to the cross when Jesus died. Of course, not literally, yet very much in a legal sense in the court of Heaven.

Writing to the uncircumcised Gentiles, Paul explains that God has forgiven them all their trespasses through faith in Jesus Christ and his blood blots out the written ordinances which were contrary to the Gentile. Jesus took those ordinances regarding the Jewish sacraments and nailed them to His cross. He rendered them useless when He died as the Lamb of God.

Col 2:13-17 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Paul continues to explain how Jesus spoiled the arrogance which had come to attend the Jewish system and for this reason the Gentiles were not to allow the Judiazers to judge them in things pertaining to those hand written ordinances concerning the shadowy earthly sacrificial system.

Col 2:13-17 (KJV) continued...
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

2. Christ has become our Priest and High Priest officiating before the throne of God in the heavenly temple. Seeing that the True is in full operation what need is there for an earthly priesthood and mass which is merely a shadow of the True.

You have that confounded. The Catholic priesthood and the Mass are the THINGS TO COME. They are what cast the shadow which was the Old Law which is now defunct.

Christ has become our High Priest.

Heb 8:1-2 (KJV)

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Christ's ministry from the heavenly tabernacle.

Heb 8:1-2 (KJV) continued...
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Christ officiates in the heavenly temple, not an earthly one made with human hands but one built by God himself.

Christ has died, Christ has risen, and Christ is seated in the heavens at the right hand of God. Therefore, Christ was triumphant over every earthly system and principality. Why continue with the rudimentary things of this world contained in the precepts of men? Christ is superior.

Col 2:8-22 (KJV)
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

14[For Christ has blotted] out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

There is so much more information I could share but I think this adequately demonstrates that Jesus did not come to re-affirm an earthly priesthood nor to continue the sacrificial system here on earth.

All that would be really good logic, except its based upon a false premise. As I've shown.

Well He knew that He came to abolish that system of hand-written ordinances

Hand written ordinances? The Scriptures? What other handwritten ordinances were there? The oral tradition of the Jews was not written until after the advent of Jesus.

which was contrary to us seeing it continually reminded us of our sins yet could not make us perfect. Well He knew that He would establish a better covenant than the old covenant with its sacrificial system and earthly priesthood. He knew He was the True Lamb to which the shadow system had pointed. He knew that He was to ascend into heaven to intercede for us before the throne of God represented by the mercy seat which overshadowed the law in the ark of the earthly temple. He knew that from the beginning He was our High Priest and that the earthly system was temporary in nature and was but a shadow of the true.

So there was no reason for Jesus to re-affirm an earthly priesthood. Thus, he was not equating his apostles with an earthly priesthood. The comparison was between their actions, not their office.

Nooo. The Old system was a shadow of things to come. Therefore, the common priesthood and the ministerial priesthood were still to come. And they have now come, in the Catholic Church.


De Maria

De Maria's picture

re: Things to come. DM writes -

The "things to come" was not another earthly system but a heavenly one.

The "things to come" are the system which Jesus established on earth. Jesus called that system the "kingdom of heaven".

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Because He came down from heaven to establish it on earth:
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

and He established it with these words:
Matthew 16:18 (King James Version)

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus has become our High Priest and He officiates, not on earth, but in the heavenly sanctuary.

Correct. And on earth He set His Vicar:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. Heb 8:1-2.

The earthly priesthood was the copy and shadow of the true which is in heaven, not in the Catholic church.

The very term, "HIGH priest" assumes that there are other priests. And Jesus came from heaven to establish the Kingdom of heaven on earth according to the heavenly pattern given Him by the Father.
John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” Heb 8:4-5.

Read the next verse:
6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

If Jesus weren't a priest on high, we wouldn't be priests on earth. Not ministerial priests nor even common priests.

It is because the common priesthood exists that the ministerial priesthood must also exist in order to sustain and nourish the common priesthood.

It is a New Covenant, it is Christ's Covenant and it is the Heavenly Covenant which cast the shadow which was copied by the Old Covenant.