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One Flesh Union - Christ and the Church

De Maria's picture

What is the One Flesh Union concerning Christ and the Church?

I have posted a version of this question in the Biblical Studies because I believe it is a beautiful question to ponder. And another version in the interdenominational Discussions to see how we view this mystery as expressed in the Sacrament of Matrimony differently.

But I have really been waiting patiently and anxiously for quite a long time to post this particular question on this forum because in another discussion here, the Catholic view of the One Flesh Union between Christ and the Church was called blasphemous. Specifically this teaching from the Catechism.

795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.

Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."

Our understanding of the One Flesh Union between Christ and the Church is based upon this verse.
Ephesians 5:
30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Now, it seems to me that our understanding lines up pretty well with Scripture.

And so, I posted this particular thread to see how your views contrast with the Catholic view of this greatest and most wonderful of mysteries.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria's picture

re:re:re:re: re: difference between "In Christ" and "being Chris

DM said,

Everything needs to be interpreted. Even your own interpretations of Scripture need to be interpreted.

But the interpretations of the Catholic Church have the guarantee of the Holy Spirit, since the Catholic Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. And whether you understand Catholic Doctrine or not, you can be assured that Catholic Doctrine is correct. Scripture attests to that fact.

Mike said,
Do you have the guarantee of the HOLY SPIRIT that your interpretation of church doctrine is correct?

As I said. We have the guarantee that Catholic doctrine is correct.

So, here's the procedure from Scripture:

Matt 18: 15"If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[b] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

So, if I have a disagreement with my Catholic brethren about the interpretation of a verse or doctrine, they will take me to the Church. The Church will decide which of us is right. This procedure was used when Arius was pronounced a heretic.

However, this would never happen with you or any other Protestant. Because if you disagree with your Church, you simply leave and either create your own or join one that agrees with you.

Is that procedure in Scripture?

DM said,

You seem to be prejudiced against prejudice in general. But I am not. I find my prejudices to be very useful sometimes. In fact, most of the time.

Mike says,
Interesting position, your prejudices are better than mine!

I believe so. I believe some of your pre-suppositions, the ideas upon which you have based your conclusions, are flawed. That is why we are having this discussion. Because we have fundamental differences, our prejudices are different. You don't agree with many of mine. I don't agree with many of yours.

Mike said,

I don't think I am, (prejudiced) can you point out where I have been?

DM said,
In this case, it seems obvious, you took one Catechism document, and I assume you read the false interpretations of that document offered by anti-Catholics and you believed them.

Mike says,

Interesting, you accuse me of prejudice and your evidence is based on an assumption. I only considered what you offered in this thread.

The basic difference between you and I in this specific discussion is that you don't recognize or acknowledge your prejudices. Whereas I recognize and acknowledge mine.

You claim you have none. I know I have many. And I won't give up my prejudices until someone proves them wrong.

Mike said,
When asked why they felt that way, all that could be mustered up is "because the priest said so".

DM says,
What's the difference between that and the Protestant who says, "because the Bible says so."

Mike says,
I personnally believe that "because the Bible says so" is a better springboard.
There is a simple song we teach children ...
"Jesus loves me this I know ... the bible tells me so"

Except that Protestants doctrines are not in Scripture.

DM said,
Compare to your situation. You are only an authority about what you believe and intepret in Scripture. Because you believe in Sola Scriptura. Therefore, your catechism is between your ears.

Mike says,
Anybody's catechism, or the bible for that matter, can be in between their ears only.

No. That is a form of gnosticism. Secret beliefs.

The Catholic Catechism is provided for all to know. Whereas, Protestants make up their own catechisms. Each one decides for himself what is right.

Which is the reason for belonging to the church, the mystical body. Therein Christ is in your heart and then you will have the mind of Christ!

Heb 13
17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.


Mike said,
I know that those bad attributes are not exclusively characteristic of any denomination but are characteristic of the fallen nature of man.
DM said,
Well said, so why did you insinuate that you had those attributes because you were Catholic?

Mike says,
Where did I even say that I was a catholic?

Let me look that up. When you said:
I come from a community of RC's

I got the impression you were saying that you were not a "neophyte" in Catholic doctrine because you were raised Catholic and had converted.

Read carefully, I had those attributes because of my fallen nature

Thanks for correcting me.

..... Why do you hear otherwise ... ?

Explained above.


Mike quoted,
"Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith." Hebrews 13:7

DM said,
You were following the example of people that curse and cuss and behave like reprobates and you want to blame the Catholic Church?

Mike says,
Why do you think I was blaming anyone?

Because you also said:
I come from a community of RC's that teaches and have taught for generations that to be RC is the epitomy of christianity and to be other than RC is evil and is hellbound. When asked why they felt that way, all that could be mustered up is "because the priest said so".

I was an ungodly, cussing, worldly person and acceptable in my RC community until Jesus became the reason for my being, behavior and family, then I became "evil" in their eyes.

Actually I used those words to describe myself and my fallen nature before Jesus changed my life and "added me to His church" and somehow this is the conclusion you have arrived?

I think many reasonable people would arrive at that same conclusion when someone says, "I am from an RC community". But thanks for the correction.

DM said,
and you interpret this Scripture to mean that ANYONE whom you meet is your leader in the faith?

Mike says,
The verse says to me that a leader should have works to prove their faith.

Good answer.

DM said,
Mike, your prejudices are showing.

Mike says,
Does your interpretation tell you that they are good or bad?

Now that you've corrected my understanding of your words, I'd have to go back and read that message again before I could answer that question. But, I'm so far behind in this thread, I'll have to pass on that.

De Maria




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