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Heaven or hell.

Dedesmond's picture

If a baby (child) died immediately after birth. Where will the child go?

De Maria's picture

Re:The peace of trusting God's grace rather than man's tradition

Hello Dan,

Because the presumption is that the parents and community CAN believe and baptize a child, and that his/her destiny is secured by that alone.

I'm afraid you are wrong. The presumption is that the child of Christians is a Christian. It is a Scriptural presumption:

Deuteronomy 29:29
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Thus, logically, the baby that is not baptized Roman Catholic is in a far less secure position because the works of the parents were not performed to make the child part of the Roman Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with faith but of a child "lucky" enough to be born cradle catholic. He/she is halfway there ... in the road of sacramental works/salvation.

You have expressed a very complicated set of preconceptions.

1st. Faith. It is because we have faith in God that we work. It is in Scripture:

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

In fact, Scripture also says that the man that claims to have faith but has no works is deceiving himself:

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

In addition, it is true that we believe that a baby that is baptized in the Catholic Church is better off than one who is not baptized at all. But what is the difference between that attitude and yours between children born of Christians and children born to a Muslim family?

As for the Sacraments, they are works established by Jesus Christ, they are all in Scripture and yes, we obey them because of our faith in Jesus. I'll just take one example:

The Eucharist:
John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

WE believe the words of Jesus Christ and obey them.

According to Romans 4, King David knew he was righteously forgiven though not perfect. With this passage before us, King David knew that righteosness was imputed to Him by God.

King David obeyed God and proved his righteousness.

32:1 A Psalm of David. A Maskil. How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! 2 How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! 3 When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. 4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.Selah. 5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord”; And You forgave the guilt of my sin.Selah. 6 Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found; Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him. 7 You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble; You surround me with songs of deliverance.Selah. ...
New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ps 32:1-11). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

This does not say that God imputed righteousness. This says that God did not impute sin. And that God forgave David's sins.

In 2 Sam 12:13 God forgave and took away his sin. In 2 Sam 12:23b, David says of the child who died because of his affair with Bathsheeba, "I WILL go to him". This child had not been baptized or dedicated, or anything.

There is nothing preventing David from visiting the child in the child's death bed. This verse says that David went to him BUT the child will not return to David.

David fasted and wept and prayerd, trusting in God's grace alone according to verse 22. Yet, apart from any works or sacrament or ceremony to initiate the child, David is positive of the grace of God. Because he is sure of God's grace he knows where this child is in eternity. David knows the forgiveness of God over his sin with Bathsheba (Pslams 51 - wash me and I will be whiter than snow). He took responsibilty and did all any can do for a sick child: trust the grace of God in fasting and weeping and prayer. And then comfort our family if it does not go well.

Where does it say any of that? David only meant that God will not give the child back his life.

There are too many false presumptions of yours concerning Catholic teaching in this matter. But the worst one is this:

You seem to be under the impression that the Catholic Church teaches that children who die unbaptized go to hell. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If I'm not wrong, please provide the Catholic teaching to the effect. Because I'm not aware of such.


De Maria