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Answering the charge of infidels against Christianity

JeffLogan's picture

There is a verse in the Bible which reads,

"These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." John 16:1-3 (KJV)

The infidel claims that if not for Christian history we would not know the depths of depravity to which the human mind may descend. That Christian fellows, claiming to follow in the steps of their Lord, have exhausted the limits of human imagination dreaming up the worst atrocities to carry out on those who claim to be their brothers in Christ yet deny one or more tenets of a creed. That the lives of millions of men, women and children have been sacrificed to preserve a creed all in the name of a God who taught them to love their enemies and turn the other cheek. That in this life the church persecutes those who disagree with her doctrines and at death sends them on to her god to be tortured through-out eternity. A god whose appetite for revenge is implacable and whose love for torment insatiable.

My question is, in light of Christian history, its decretals, its current doctrines and attitudes, and the way in which we treat others who do not agree with us, how can we answer the charge of the Infidel? Have we fulfilled the command to love one another, or have we fulfilled John 16:1-3 in putting them out of our midst and even killing them. Of course, we are stayed by civil power today but the Infidel contends that had we the power we would today kill heretics as in times past. How can we justify our actions? How can we condemn radical Islam who is but following in our steps? How can we condemn Hitler's slaughter of Jews who are classed with Infidels?

I would like to hear your thoughts. I will share mine as well.

JeffLogan's picture

But God says this

Reply to: The Soul is that part which
Submitted by jwmcmac on Thu, 2009-08-27 07:52.

The Soul is that part which is eternal in man as he was created . . . and cannot ever become non-existent. The Soul is eternal.

When man was created in the image of God he was promised eternal life on condition of obedience. But God told man that if he disobeyed he would die. When man sinned he was driven from the garden of Eden and his access to the Tree of Life was blocked by angels who stood guard. Scripture tells us the reason--so man would not live forever.

Jesus says that he is the life. That would be insignificant if we could reply, "Yes, and so are we. We don't need you to have life. If not for the threat of hell fire I would live as I please because I am not under any obligation to you for my life. But if I don't serve you then you can make my life miserable."

Man was created in the image of God but man was not endowed with the essence of God. Satan promised that if they ate of the forbidden tree they would become like God. But even that was a lie. Life exists only in God and we are dependent upon him for our life. "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself..." John 5:26 (KJV). And Jesus gives this life to whom he wills. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36 (KJV).

John writes that God has given eternal life to man. "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." But this life is in the Son, and he makes it very plain that only those who have the Son have this life. "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11-12 (KJV). The reason the wicked perish is because they refuse to have the Son that they might have life. "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." John 5:39-40 (KJV). Now the question is asked, do the wicked have Jesus the Son of God abiding in them. The obvious answer is no. So then we must ask, how do they have this life which is only in the Son and only promised to those who have the Son? This is the reason the wicked perish--because they have refused to come to Jesus to receive that life. If it were not necessary to receive this life from Jesus then why do we partake of the bread of life?

The Second Death is the permanent and everlasting Death of dying in our sins and Living forever without the Presence of GOD . . . separated from GOD . . . forever and forever . . . something that cannot be humanly imagined or fully understood in this Life . . . just as the eternal Joy of Heaven cannot be fully imagined or fully understood in this Life.

You nearly tripped over your own words. What you are really saying is that death is not death but "dying". You redefine the words to fit your theology. You actually say that death is "living forever." And, that without the presence of God. But we just read from scripture that life comes only from God and only those who have the Son have life. It is only by the grace of God that we know enjoy life. The real separation from God that the wicked will suffer results in being separated from the Life.

Since JESUS is the Way, the Truth and the Life . . . being separated from the Life WHO is JESUS for all eternity is called the Second Death. Don't die this death due to any un-repented sin or through lack of Faith.

Now you speak plainly. "being separated from the Life WHO is Jesus...is...the Second Death." That is correct. Death results from being separated from the source of Life, Jesus Christ. "he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12 (KJV).

The Angels cannot cease to exist . . . and neither can the Soul of a man made in GOD's Image and Likeness . . . neither can the soul of a man cease to exist . . . ever.

That would be true if either the angels or man possessed eternal life apart from the source of Life. But actually both the angels and the wicked men will be destroyed body and soul in the lake of fire. Jesus said that God was able to destroy both body and soul in hell. And, Ezekiel pens the words of God, "the soul that sinneth it shall die."

John tells us that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, not to simply pretend to destroy them. "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8 (KJV).

Believe what you want . . . this is what the Church has always understood and always Taught as to this.

But "the Church" you refer to came into being officially in the 6th century when Justinian gave the Bishop of Rome his seat, his power, and his authority in the codified laws of Justinian II. The early apostolic church certainly did not believe or teach this. We have the Biblical record.

The torments of hell are as eternal as are the Joys of Heaven . . . as eternal as is GOD HIMSELF . . . and this . . . whether you or I Believe it or not.

Yes, the punishment is eternal. The punishment of the wicked will last forever but not the punishing. Their punishment is to die the second death and that is final and will be eternal. The flames will consume them to ashes for all eternity. They will never rise again.

If hell were not the way it is described and were not so awful, just as both you and I believe, JESUS would not have bothered to come . . . and simply would have started over . . . what for . . . to put HIMSELF and us through so much.

What? It was not because hell was so awful that brought Jesus to this world. It was his love for mankind. His love compelled him to come to seek the lost. To offer to everyone who would the gift of eternal life through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

In a nutshell: God has a law and anyone who breaks that law is condemned to die. Satan broke that law and then he led man to disobey as well so that God would have to destroy man. I guess it was Satan hope that God would toss away the law in order to save man. If the law was done away with then Satan himself would cease to be a transgressor. Because where there is no law there is no infraction. But God devised a plan whereby he might save man and still destroy Satan. A plan that would allow God to be both just and merciful. A plan that would established the immutability of his word will removing sin from the universe.

But hell is as described and is just that awful as you and I believe . . .

The awfulness of hell is not the torment of the flame. It is the separation of the soul from God. We see that in the death of Jesus. In the garden his soul was exceedingly sorrowful. Why? Because God had placed the sins of the world upon him and he felt the anguish of the separation from his Faher that sin causes. As he was dying on the cross he cried out, "My God, why have you forsaken me." Jesus was feeling in his soul the anguish that sinners will feel when God separates himself fully from the wicked. There will be utter darkness in the soul and weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus never went through hell fires for us and he certainly is not suffering there now in our place for all eternity. The law demanded our death and Jesus died the second death for all who believe in him.

. . . and so JESUS came and Died for us . . . so that we can follow in HIS Footsteps and do the same for GOD and for ourselves and for others.

This doing the will of God is eternal life. Jesus had this life in himself and by faith Christ can live in our hearts. This means we can partake, not posses, the divine nature of Jesus. We partake of it but we don't own it such that we could still retain it should we choose to separate from Jesus. When we separate from Jesus we loose that divine nature and life.

After the bad time of the anti-christ . . . if that is what is coming . . . we do expect a 'Time of Peace' to be granted to the world . . . this in anticipation of JESUS' Second Coming to Judge the Living and the Dead (speaking both physically . . . and also most especially . . . speaking Spiritually . . . as referring to both the living and the dead).

We should strive for peace with all men even in this world. But I would not look for a reign of peace on earth. Not until the earth has been purged of sin and sinners by the fires and has been made new.

Many are preach peace and safety but they do not realize what is coming upon them. It will surprise them like a thief in the night. "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." 1 Thess 5:2-3 (KJV).

GOD Bless us all.

God has blessed us if we will but taste of his goodness and truth. In fact, God has already given us our reward in the life of Jesus Christ.

May we all seek after the Truth will all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and receive the blessings he has graciously bestowed upon us.

“The path of true piety is so plain as to require
but little political direction.” --George Washington,
re: absence of "Jesus Christ" in U.S. Constitution.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. -Proverbs 18:2 NIV