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Scripture and Tradition? Where does Tradition stand?

Loutzenhiser's picture

We will continue the 2 Tim and 1 Thess here. I will bring the last posts from each thread here.

Let me define the thread subject here. We all agree that Scripture is foundational to the church, but where does tradition stand and what tradition.

Some questions -

Is a tradition considered to be apostolical even though it is announced and defined at a later date?

Must a tradition have some other supporting evidence or is the church's "word" good enough for it to be considered canonical?

Is Dogma tradition or just a church's view?

What support must a tradition have to be canonical? (such as multi-church support?)

Are views and teachings about a tradition also tradition or just a church's opinion?

JeffLogan's picture

It is a leap

Response to:You really aren't addressing the primary issue here
Submitted by michael_legna on Tue, 2009-05-05 09:34.

Michael, you make a leap from scripture to purgatory but you have failed to prove purgatory is even Biblical. You say such things as "Verse 14 explains that purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness" and "Verse 15 explains that those in purgatory are in a state of venial sin" but you have jumped over any proof that purgatory exists or is Biblical. You just jump over that stone to arrive at an erroneous assumption that these verse are speaking of a time after death.

The Bible speaks of the chastening of the Lord. This occurs while we are alive. If this "purgatory" occurs after death as you claim then how are those which are alive at Christ's coming purified? And, if you say they are "burned" alive then why does this principle not work for those who came before? Why the second probation for them?

St. Peter writes that the suffering which perfects us is here and now. "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Peter 5:6-11 (KJV)

But what is the purpose of this suffering? It is not to pay for sin for the wages of sin is death. It is the Lord's chastening. Just as a loving father corrects a child so the Lord corrects his children. All things work for our good when we love Jesus. (Romans 6:23, Hebrews 12:5, Romans 8:18-28)

(Of course, I am not conceding the point that Christ paid the full price for all of our sins and promised not to mention them again. So this whole concept of man finishing the payment owing for sin is foreign to the gospel. We do suffer the consequences of our sins and so do our children and their children to the third and fourth generation. But only those who reject the gift of forgiveness by grace through Jesus Christ will pay for their sins. Besides, don't you believe that the wages of sin is eternally burning hell fire? Isn't purgatory a bit short to repay for sin? And, if we believe the Bible, that the wages of sin is death, then wouldn't the debt for sin involve destruction as mentioned in verse 17 where God destroys those who defile their own bodies?)

There are a lot of things left dangling by this theory of purgatory taught by the Catholic church. A lot of things that don't jive with scripture.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia -

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

It is this part that really bugs me: "in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, . . . have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."

But even if that were cleared up it would still leave the erroneous teaching of cleansing taking place after "departing this life." The whole purpose of this life is to be holy as God is holy and to depart from sin and shun it and to establish a closer relationship with God. But the doctrine of purgatory leads men to believe that they can neglect duty in this life knowing that purgatory will finish the work. But if purgatory is false then the effect is that men are allowed to go into the grave with a false hope believing they are saved while all the while they neglected to take advantage of the promises God gave them in this life. And, by neglecting to purify themselves in this life aren't they in effect defiling their temples and thus become worthy of destruction as promised in verse 17.

And, what becomes of last rites, holy unction, or Anointing of the sick? If the priest is able to expunge a person of sins then wouldn't this release them from purgatory and send their souls straight to heaven in the case of death?

That reminds me. The other day I got a letter from Saint Matthew's Churches. That letter promised me that a cross was waiting for me and if I would send for this cross and keep it with me at all times I would enjoy many blessings. It is said that the cross has been prayed over and now apparently has inherent power to heal and bring wealth--among other things. I also receive emails almost daily stating that if I will forward the email to ten people I will be blessed but if I do not then watch-out! Perhaps I should also remember not to walk under a ladder, break a mirror, step on cracks, or allow a black cat to cross my path.

Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Peter 5:6-11 (KJV)

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"Iniquitas mentita est sibi"

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. -Proverbs 18:2 NIV



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