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Discussions on Jesus (combining Was Jesus God & Jesus in the Bread)

Loutzenhiser's picture

Both these threads are covering about the same territory now and getting long again. Continue both threads here.

michael_legna's picture

Two different actors cannot provide single signature

duu1der said –
While I will agree that God and the Holy Spirit are God, since God is spirit, what I said is that Jesus could not assume the authority of God EXCEPT that GOD EMPOWERED Him to do so.

Only if your mistranslate the verse to fit your doctrine. Still it will be interesting to see if you can do this with all the verses I offered for you to reconcile, and not just address one set and claim victory as you tried to do.

duu1der said –
God GAVE Jesus the right to act on behalf of God, but not as God, which is what scripture states.

No it doesn't as we will see below because it is your interpretation which misses the point. Let us look at these verses and your translation and interpretation to see if they hold or not.

Who Will Raise the True Believer from the Dead?
God the Father—1 Cor. 6:14
Jesus Christ—John 5:25-29, 6:40, 44, Phil. 3:20-21
The Holy Spirit—Rom. 8:11

duu1der said –
John 5:25-29 - Notice v:26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted [empowered] the Son to have life in Himself".
v:27 "And has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man"

Yep, you are right. God EMPOWERED Jesus and GAVE HIM authority to do all things, even execute judgment just as is stated in Phil 2:9-11, as I've said all along.

But, does not equate Jesus to God; quite the contrary. It proves my point more than yours.

Once again this does not support your claim, because of a simple equating implied in the statements of 1 Cor 6:14, John 5:26 and Rom 8:11. Think of it this way. If I say the President was the only one to sign a paper, and I claimed the CEO was the only one to sign the bill and I claim the Chairman of the Board was the only one to sign a paper, then we would immediately know that the three were really the same. There is no empowering or granting implied with this raising the true believer from the dead, unless you want to claim this happens multiple times. Because if God the Father does it, it is done and it leaves no chance of it being also done by some one He empowered. Therefore your entire idea of Son and the Father being different beings is faulty. The Trinity on the other hand has no such problem because there is seen a relationship between the three Person's of the Trinity to allow this expression of love and obedience without in anyway impacting their divinity.

duu1der said –
Phil 3:20-21 -- you have taken out of context.

See v:7-11, esp 9-11 - "And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through FAITH IN CHRIST, the righteousness which is FROM GOD BY FAITH: that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection,adn the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death. If, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."

duu1der said –
In v:20-21 Paul is referring to the second coming when we will be transformed. However, as he stated earlier, that ability came because "God has highly exalted Him" (Phil 2: 9-11)because of His sacrificial life.

Actually if you look at the context you will see that Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead

Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Which is precisely what I claimed in the topic summary – "Who Will Raise the True Believer from the Dead?" – so I am not taking anything out of context.

Who is able to do this? It is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
How many times is this done? Once.
How many possible beings can be involved in a one time event? One
Therefore the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all One God.

duu1der said –
John 6:40, 44 -- Again, taken out of context.
see :37, 39 -- "All that the Father GIVES me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."
"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

No it is not, since it also talks about being raised up on the last day – which is just as I said in the topic summary. Did you even read it?

This being raised up occurs only once and the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are all credited with being responsible for this – and so they all must be one.

This same idea is contained in all of the verses I referenced for you to reconcile, so once you grasp the argument please keep it in mind as you proceed through the rest of them. Also realize that it does no good to try to hold to some sort of empowerment interpretation because these are one time events and are done by the Father so any other name credited with doing these must also be God.

duu1der said –
God foretold that He was going to elevate Jesus to a position of authority based on the work He did. Not that Jesus was born with that authority, but that He earned it by sacrificing His life -- just as Paul described in Philipians.

If God really did elevate Jesus to a position of authority then God the Father would not have to be listed as also doing these things, but yet He and the Holy Spirit are. Therefore the Three are One.

ML said: "See your admission that he is empowered doesn't get around the fact that the actors in each rendition are equated and so are the same and if one of them is God then they are all God."

duu1der said –
The problem with this statement is the actors are not equated. It never says that the "actors" are equal. It says that One actor - God - authorized another - His Son Jesus the Christ - to act on His behalf. Not as equal, but as EMPOWERED.

No it doesn't. The verse 1 Cor. 6:14 says the Father does this one time event, the verses John 5:25-29, 6:40, 44, Phil. 3:20-21 say that Jesus does this one time event, and Rom. 8:11 says the Holy Spirit does this one time event – thus these three must all be the same.

ML said: "we have the verses at John 5:25-29, 6:40, 44, Phil. 3:20-21 which say that Jesus Christ will raise the true believer so by equating the actions and the actors we have that Jesus (even as He is empowered by God - if that is your claim) is the same actor producing the same act so He too is God."

duu1der said –
To be a math genius, and so gifted in logic, you seem to have missed the error of your own logic. Just because 2 are able to do the same thing does not make them the same, especially, if one has been GIVEN THE AUTHORITY to act as the other. What we have is a different actor given the authority to do the same act... thus 2 different actos, not the same.

No we are not raised multiple times so there is no different acts. You do not see the flaw in your logic. There cannot be two different actors performing the same one time act. You can have two different actors be the only ones who sign two different papers, but you cannot have two different actors be the only signers of the same paper.

***EVEN IF for the sake of argument, we accepted your interpretation of Jesus being merely empowered we still end up with God raising the true believer and someone who is not God but is empowered by God raising the true believer - so we end up with two different beings doing one and the same singular act.

This contradiction alone shows your mistranslation and interpretation to be faulty.