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Discussions on Jesus (combining Was Jesus God & Jesus in the Bread)

Loutzenhiser's picture

Both these threads are covering about the same territory now and getting long again. Continue both threads here.

michael_legna's picture

Your response never addressed the verses directly

duu1der said -
I'm not sure I understand your question. If the 2 natures are not connected... how do you suppose that there is 1 being?

ML said: "Because we have an historical record in the writings of the New Testament that Jesus was a single being."

duu1der said -
In the O.T., throughout the prophecies foretold of, the person that God sent, who is unmistakably Jesus, is referred to by God as His Servant, not Son.

And in the New Testament He (Jesus) is referred to as God’s Son. Are you claiming the New Testament is wrong?

duu1der said -
It is only after the baptism of Jesus that God ever refers to Jesus as His Son. In 2 of 3 Gospels that declare what the voice from heaven said the quote is a declaration to Jesus "You are My Son...", indicating that God can now refer to Jesus as His Son the same way He can indicate to all who come to believe as His Children.

And I already shown you that Elizabeth recognized Jesus while still in Mary’s womb as being her Lord. And I showed you that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God by His comments in the Temple at age 12. I also have shown you that John the Baptist knew before he baptized Jesus that it was unnecessary. So this idea that Christ was just a human until the Baptism is one you have to abandon.

ML said: "Add to that the fact that we have Scriptures which indicate Jesus was God (the Word made flesh) and that He was a man."

duu1der said –
Again, open to interpretation. The Word can also rightly be interpreted as Wisdom, so that the Wisdom of God was embodied in Jesus so that the Wisdom of God became flesh, as folks like Marcus Borg, G.B.CAIRD, and Richard Hayes would argue.

You are wrong here for two reasons.

First you rely on modern translators as to what this might mean when we have the authority of people who read this verse in the original Greek and have spoken Greek for 2000 years as their natural language and so have no need for translation and they come to the same conclusion as the Catholic Church regarding the meaning of the verse. I refer here to the Orthodox Church which I I would trust over this issue above any modern translators who think in English.

Second you are interpreting this in isolation from the rest of Scripture which show Jesus to be God, not just possessed by God’s power.

duu1der said -
The Creeds came about in the same way you and I have argued with the exception that you do not have a Roman Emperor backing you as Athanasius was.

ML said: "No the Creeds came about in the same way you and I have argued with the exception that those who were doing the arguing were grant the protection from error of the Holy Spirit when they were gathered together such that whatever they bound or loosed on earth would be bound or loosed in heaven. Who needs the power of the Emperor behind them when they have the power of God behind them?"

duu1der said -
First off, I'm offended to think that you off handedly declared that you are the one protected by the Holy Spirit and I'm somehow lost in space.

I never said I was protected that way I said the Council of Bishops who argued over this were protected by the Holy Spirit. If you are offended by that claim you will have to take that up with Scripture because that is where we learn of this protection.

duu1der said -
As far as proof, had you ever taken in courses in Christian History, you might realize the error of your statement. With my degree, and years of study, I will tell you that you are absolutely mistaken. Take some time and do some research.

I know enough about the study of history that you can find a historian to back almost any version of history you care to choose and so I am not interested in modern revisionist histories by biased authors.

duu1der said -
You keep asking me for my proof and I refer to the scriptures. You refer to the Creed and other man-made documents to support your argument.

ML said: "Please!!! I have offered so many verses of scripture you have not responded to and addressed all the verse you provide to show that they speak to one nature or the other but do not prove the two natures cannot exist together."

duu1der said -
Then you did not read my response. The scriptures you offered concern a "post-easter", or resurrected Jesus, who had been elevated to a higher position than the "pre-easter", or human Jesus.

I did read them and I pointed out the failing of your response.

You first claimed that Jesus was only similar because you claimed these shared events were only similar not exactly the same – and when I proved that was not true you changed you approach and tried to claim these events were all performed by the Risen Christ but that too is wrong. Here are the events again so you can see that your response is still unsatisfactory.

Who Indwells the True Believer?
God the Father—2 Cor. 6:16-18, Phil. 2:13
Jesus Christ—2 Cor. 13:5, Gal. 2:20, Col. 1:27
The Holy Spirit—1 Cor. 6:19, John 14:17, 2 Tim. 1:14, Rom. 8:9

Who Raised Jesus From the Dead?
God the Father—Acts 3:15, 26, 1 Thess. 1:9-10, Acts 2:32, 17:30-31
Jesus raised Himself—John 2:19-22
The Holy Spirit—Rom. 8:11, 1 Pet. 3:18

Who Will Raise the True Believer from the Dead?
God the Father—1 Cor. 6:14
Jesus Christ—John 5:25-29, 6:40, 44, Phil. 3:20-21
The Holy Spirit—Rom. 8:11

Whom Do Christians Fellowship With?
The Father—1 John 1:3-6, John 14:23
Jesus Christ—1 John 1:3, 1 Cor. 1:9
The Holy Spirit—2 Cor. 13:14, Phil. 2:1

Who Searches Our Hearts?
The Father—1 Chronicles 28:9, Jer. 17:10
The Son—Rev. 2:23 (v.18)
The Holy Spirit—1 Cor. 2:10, Rom. 8:26-27

Who Gives the Christian the Words to Speak?
The Father—Matt. 10:17-20
The Son—Luke 21:12-15
The Holy Spirit—Luke 12:11-12

Who Abides With the True Believer?
The Father—John 14:23
The Son—John 14:23
The Holy Spirit—John 14:17

The ones I highlighted above all are statements made before Christ was risen.

Besides your new approach has an additional problem in that you now must be claiming that Jesus was a normal man, then at His baptism He was filled with the power of God but is still only a man, and then after He is risen THEN He becomes God?! Nonsense, we do not become God when we receive our glorified body – there is only one God!

duu1der said -
Since the discussion of the deity of Jesus comes down to “words” and their meanings it may prove very useful to see how those “words” are understood and used in scripture.
The following is excerpts from E.W. Bullinger’s “A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament”.
“Kurios = lord, principle ruler; He who assumes and exercises the power
As a name for God, it is used as predicated of Him, or when He is addressed or spoken of

Lord is not a name it is a title.

duu1der said -
As a name for Christ, because He stands in the same relation to us as God. But while kurios is used a translation of JEHOVAH, the name Jehovah is never applied to Christ,

That is not true and I provided you that proof as well which you never responded to either.

Jesus is also the revealed God of the Old Testament. We know that Jesus is "the Word" [John 1:1], and that no one has ever seen the Father [John 6:46, 1:18]. Since Jesus is the image of the invisible God [Colossians 1:15], then if anyone at anytime has seen God, then we should expect that they saw the image of the invisible God, the Word, Jesus.

Consider the following people who saw the LORD [Yahweh] in the Old Testament:

Hagar [Gen 16:7-13]
Gen 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. (note: we know this was God by looking at verse 13 - Gen 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spoke unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Abraham [Gen 18]
Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Jacob [Genesis 32:30]
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (note we see this is God Himself if we look at Hosea 12:3-5)

Moses [Exodus 33:11]
Exo 33:11 And the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Joshua [Joshua 5:13]
Jos 5:13-14 13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? (note we know this is the Lord Himself from verse 6:2 - Jos 6:2 And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valor.)

Gideon [Judges 6:11-23]
Jdg 6:22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. (note this angel of the Lord is the Lord as is apparent from verse 16 - Jdg 6:16 And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.)

Manoah [Judges 13:22]
Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Isaiah [Isaiah 6:5]
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Job [Job 42:5]
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Who did they see? It was not God the Father [John 1:18; 6:46], so it must be the visual image of the GodHead, it must have been Jesus. And they identified Him as God.

Additionally here are a host of Old Testament citations regarding the nature and works of Yahweh which are either quoted or alluded by the New Testament authors in connection with the Lord Jesus. We will also address an objection which is often raised by anti-Trinitarians in trying to deny that the NT writers believed that Jesus was the visible manifestation of Yahweh.

“Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba and called there on the name of Yahweh, the Everlasting God.” Genesis 21:33

“Into your hand I commit my spirit; you have redeemed me, O Yahweh, faithful God.” Psalm 31:5

“And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as Yahweh has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom Yahweh calls.” Joel 2:32

“And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ And when he had said this, he fell asleep.’” Acts 7:59-60

“Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, ‘Ananias.’ And he said, ‘Here I am, Lord.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.’ But Ananias answered, ‘Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name’… So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, ‘Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit’… And all who heard him were amazed and said, ‘Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem of those who called upon this name? And has he not come here for this purpose, to bring them bound before the chief priests?’” Acts 9:10-14, 17, 21

“because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.’ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” Romans 10:9-13

“To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:” 1 Corinthians 1:2

“Yahweh is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.” Exodus 15:2

“Salvation belongs to Yahweh; your blessing be on your people!” Psalm 3:8

“For God alone my soul waits in silence; from him comes my salvation.” Psalm 62:1

“Yahweh is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation… I thank you that you have answered me and have become my salvation.” Psalm 118:14, 21

“For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.” Hebrews 2:10

“And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,” Hebrews 5:9

“and crying out with a loud voice, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!’” Revelation 7:10

“You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, Yahweh, sanctify you.’” Exodus 31:13

“Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance. Only in Yahweh, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. In Yahweh all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.” Isaiah 45:21-25

“Then the nations will know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” Ezekiel 37:28

“to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.” Acts 26:18

“He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.” 1 Corinthians 1:30

“And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:11

“Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Philippians 2:9-11

“For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one origin. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,” Hebrews 2:11

“And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Hebrews 10:10

“Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:” 2 Peter 1:1

“And he said, ‘My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.’ And he said to him, ‘If your presence will not go with me, do not bring us up from here.’” Exodus 33:14-15

“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30

“loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.” Deuteronomy 30:20

“For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.” Colossians 3:3-4

“See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.” Deuteronomy 32:39

“Also henceforth I am he; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?” Isaiah 43:13

“I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:28-30

“Because of your promise, and according to your own heart, you have brought about all this greatness, to make your servant know it. Therefore you are great, O Yahweh God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. And who is like your people Israel, the one nation on earth whom God went to redeem to be his people, making himself a name and doing for them great and awesome things by driving out before your people, whom you redeemed for yourself from Egypt, a nation and its gods? And you established for yourself your people Israel to be your people forever. And you, O LORD, became their God.” 2 Samuel 7:21-24

“They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.” Ezekiel 37:24

“waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.” Titus 2:11-14

“The Spirit of Yahweh speaks by me; his word is on my tongue.” 2 Samuel 23:2

“You gave your good Spirit to instruct them and did not withhold your manna from their mouth and gave them water for their thirst… Many years you bore with them and warned them by your Spirit through your prophets. Yet they would not give ear. Therefore you gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.” Nehemiah 9:20, 30

“Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.” 1 Peter 1:10-12

“For you are my lamp, O Yahweh, and my God lightens my darkness.” 2 Samuel 22:29

“I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” Ezekiel 37:26-28

“And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,” Revelation 21:22-24

“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for Yahweh searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.” 1 Chronicles 28:9

“But, O Yahweh of hosts, who judges righteously, who tests the heart and the mind, let me see your vengeance upon them, for to you have I committed my cause.” Jeremiah 11:20

“I Yahweh search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.” Jeremiah 17:10

“Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.” 1 Corinthians 4:5

According to Paul, the Lord that is coming is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ:

“so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 1:7-8

“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze. I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first… and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.’” Revelation 2:18-19, 23

“For the eyes of Yahweh range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war.” 2 Chronicles 16:9

“Yahweh is in his holy temple; Yahweh’s throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test, the children of man.” Psalm 11:4

“So he said to me, ‘This is the word of Yahweh to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says Yahweh of hosts… Who despises the day of small things? Men will rejoice when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. (These seven are the eyes of Yahweh, which range throughout the earth.)” Zechariah 4:6, 10

“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.” Revelation 3:1

“Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.” Revelation 5:6

“You are Yahweh, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.” Nehemiah 9:6

“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” Colossians 1:16-17

“but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,” Hebrews 1:2-3

“O Yahweh, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and infants, you have established strength because of your foes, to still the enemy and the avenger.” Psalm 8:1-2

“But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, ‘Hosanna to the Son of David!’ they were indignant, and they said to him, ‘Do you hear what these are saying?’ And Jesus said to them, ‘Yes; have you never read, “Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise”?’” Matthew 21:15-16

“Lift up your heads, O gates! And be lifted up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in. Who is this King of glory? Yahweh, strong and mighty, Yahweh, mighty in battle! Lift up your heads, O gates! And lift them up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in. Who is this King of glory? Yahweh of hosts, he is the King of glory! Selah” Psalm 24:7-10

“And I will be to her a wall of fire all around, declares Yahweh, and I will be the glory in her midst.” Zechariah 2:5

“None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” 1 Corinthians 2:8

“My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.” James 2:1

“Oh, taste and see that Yahweh is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!” Psalm 34:8

“But the LORD of hosts, him you shall regard as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.” Isaiah 8:13-14

“if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: ‘Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.’ So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,’ and ‘A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.’ They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.” 1 Peter 2:3-8

“but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you.” 1 Peter 3:15

“Come and hear, all you who fear God, and I will tell what he has done for my soul.” Psalm 66:16

“‘Return to your home, and declare how much God has done for you.’ And he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city how much Jesus had done for him.” Luke 8:39

“Once God has spoken; twice have I heard this: that power belongs to God, and that to you, O Lord, belongs steadfast love. For you will render to a man according to his work. Psalm 62:11-12

“Behold, the Lord Yahweh comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him. He will tend his flock like a shepherd; he will gather the lambs in his arms; he will carry them in his bosom, and gently lead those that are with young.” Isaiah 40:10-11

“Behold, Yahweh has proclaimed to the end of the earth: Say to the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your salvation comes; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.’” Isaiah 62:11

“For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.” Matthew 16:27

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep… I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.” John 10:11, 14-16

“‘Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done’… He who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely I am coming soon.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!” Revelation 22:12, 20

“You ascended on high, leading a host of captives in your train and receiving gifts among men, even among the rebellious, that Yahweh God may dwell there.” Psalm 68:18

“Am I a God at hand, declares Yahweh, and not a God afar off? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares Yahweh. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares Yahweh.” Jeremiah 23:23-24

“But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says, ‘When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.’ (In saying, ‘He ascended,’ what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)” Ephesians 4:7-10

“Your word, O Yahweh, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens.” Psalm 119:89

“The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever.” Isaiah 40:8

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” Mark 13:31- cf. Matthew 24:35

“O Israel, hope in Yahweh! For with Yahweh there is steadfast love, and with him is plentiful redemption. And he will redeem Israel from all his iniquities.” Psalm 130:7-8

“Say to those who have an anxious heart, ‘Be strong; fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you.’” Isaiah 35:4

“‘She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.’ All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: ‘Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel’ (which means, God with us).” Matthew 1:21-23

“‘O my God,’ I say, ‘take me not away in the midst of my days-you whose years endure throughout all generations!’ Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end.” Psalm 102:24-27

“But of the Son he says… And, ‘You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.’” Hebrews 1:8a, 10-12

“And it came to pass in the year in which king Ozias died, that I saw the Lord [eidon ton kurion] sitting on a high and exalted throne, and the house was full of his glory [tees doxees autou]. And seraphs stood round about him: each one had six wings: and with two they covered their face, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. And one cried to the other, and they said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory [tees doxees autou]’. And the lintel shook at the voice they uttered, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said, Woe is me, for I am pricked to the heart; for being a man, and having unclean lips, I dwell in the midst of a people having unclean lips; and I have seen with mine eyes the King, the Lord of hosts… And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go to this people? And I said, behold, I am here, send me. And he said, Go, and say to this people, Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” Isaiah 6:1-5, 8-10 LXX

“Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: ‘Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?’ For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: ‘He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn-and I would heal them.’ Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory [eiden teen doxan autou] and spoke about.” John 12:37-41

In a footnote, the translators of the NET Bible state:

88 tn Grk “his”; the referent (Christ) has been specified in the translation for clarity. The referent supplied here is “Christ” rather than “Jesus” because it involves what Isaiah saw. It is clear that the author presents Isaiah as having seen the preincarnate glory of Christ, which was the very revelation of the Father (see John 1:18; John 14:9).

sn Because he saw Christ’s glory. The glory which Isaiah saw in Isa 6:3 was the glory of Yahweh (typically rendered as “Lord” in the OT). Here John speaks of the prophet seeing the glory of Christ since in the next clause and spoke about him, “him” can hardly refer to Yahweh, but must refer to Christ. On the basis of statements like 1:14 in the prologue, the author probably put no great distinction between the two. Since the author presents Jesus as fully God (cf. John 1:1), it presents no problem to him to take words originally spoken by Isaiah of Yahweh himself and apply them to Jesus. (http://www.bible.org/netbible/joh12_notes.htm#1288)

“Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, Yahweh, the first, and with the last; I am he.” Isaiah 41:4

“Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.” Isaiah 44:6

“Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.” Isaiah 48:12

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.’” Revelation 1:17-18

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.’” Revelation 2:8

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Revelation 22:12-13

“‘You are my witnesses,’ declares Yahweh, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.’” Isaiah 43:10

“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:8

“I am Yahweh; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.” Isaiah 42:8

“For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.” Isaiah 48:11

“And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed… Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.” John 17:5, 24

“for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters,
and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water.” Jeremiah 2:13

“On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, ‘If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, “Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”’” John 7:37-38

“Thus says Yahweh: ‘Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from Yahweh. He is like a shrub in the desert, and shall not see any good come. He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness, in an uninhabited salt land. Blessed is the man who trusts in Yahweh, whose trust is Yahweh. He is like a tree planted by water, that sends out its roots by the stream, and does not fear when heat comes, for its leaves remain green, and is not anxious in the year of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit.’” Jeremiah 17:5-8

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.” John 14:1

“which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.” 2 Timothy 1:12

“And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the east. And the sound of his coming was like the sound of many waters, and the earth shone with his glory.” Ezekiel 43:2

“As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.” Daniel 7:9-10

“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.” Daniel 7:13-14

“Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. The hairs of his head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.’” Revelation 1:12-18

“For I Yahweh do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.” Malachi 3:6

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” Hebrews 13:8

In light of the foregoing, is it any wonder that the Church from its inception believed that the Lord Jesus Christ is Yahweh God Almighty?

Finally here are a couple of revealing parallels to consider:

1. According to the OT, Yahweh alone created and sustains all things. Cf. Job 9:8; Isaiah 44:24; Nehemiah 9:6

2. According to the NT, Jesus created and sustains all things. Cf. John 1:3, 10; Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 1:2-3, 10-12

Therefore, Jesus is Yahweh God.

1. According to the OT, Yahweh is immutable in contrast to creation which is mutable. Cf. Psalm 102:25-27; Malachi 3:6

2. According to the NT, Jesus is immutable. Cf. Hebrews 1:10-12; 13:8

Therefore, Jesus is Yahweh God.

I hate repeating these long posts but if you are not going to respond to them I am left with no choice.

duu1der said -
As these word studies show there is a definitive difference in the way Jesus was referred to pre-Easter (before His death and resurrection) and post-Easter (after His resurrection).

If you think this sort of analysis (which never once addresses the actually verse I referenced) carries any weight as a rebuttal then you do not understand a proper response to a proof. If you want to respond to my points then you need to provide an alternative interpretation of the actual verse to show that it can mean something other than what I interpreted to mean. You never once addressed a single on of the verses I suggest you consider. No wonder I missed this as your response.