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Discussions on Jesus (combining Was Jesus God & Jesus in the Bread)

Loutzenhiser's picture

Both these threads are covering about the same territory now and getting long again. Continue both threads here.

duu1der's picture

duu1der said -I'm not sure

duu1der said -
I'm not sure I understand your question. If the 2 natures are not connected... how do you suppose that there is 1 being?

ML said: "Because we have an historical record in the writings of the New Testament that Jesus was a single being."

In the O.T., throughout the prophecies foretold of, the person that God sent, who is unmistakably Jesus, is referred to by God as His Servant, not Son. It is only after the baptism of Jesus that God ever refers to Jesus as His Son. In 2 of 3 Gospels that declare what the voice from heaven said the quote is a declaration to Jesus "You are My Son...", indicating that God can now refer to Jesus as His Son the same way He can indicate to all who come to believe as His Children.

ML said: "Add to that the fact that we have Scriptures which indicate Jesus was God (the Word made flesh) and that He was a man."
Again, open to interpretation. The Word can also rightly be interpreted as Wisdom, so that the Wisdom of God was embodied in Jesus so that the Wisdom of God became flesh, as folks like Marcus Borg, G.B.CAIRD, and Richard Hayes would argue.

duu1der said -
The Creeds came about in the same way you and I have argued with the exception that you do not have a Roman Emperor backing you as Athanasius was.

ML said: "No the Creeds came about in the same way you and I have argued with the exception that those who were doing the arguing were grant the protection from error of the Holy Spirit when they were gathered together such that whatever they bound or loosed on earth would be bound or loosed in heaven. Who needs the power of the Emperor behind them when they have the power of God behind them?"

First off, I'm offended to think that you off handedly declared that you are the one protected by the Holy Spirit and I'm somehow lost in space.
As far as proof, had you ever taken in courses in Christian History, you might realize the error of your statement. With my degree, and years of study, I will tell you that you are absolutely mistaken. Take some time and do some research.
"Over the past two decades, Justo Gonzalez’s two-volume The Story of Christianity has been a standard introduction to Christian history in seminaries and universities throughout the world. Christianity Today has an informative article on its web site: www.christianitytoday.com/history/newsletter/2003/mar28.html, titled, "Top Ten Reasons to Read Christian History." It shows how deeply Christian history is integrated into society, politics and culture and how essential it is to understanding our modern world. The article also points out how an appreciation of Christian history helps root out prejudice and makes us less critical of others and more aware of our own shortcomings and limited perspectives."

That's how I can make the statement "duu1der said -
He insisted that his view point was correct and, for a time, had the ear of Roman Emperor Constantine. As I have stated, this argument has never been settled by theological debate, but by political influence."

duu1der said -
You keep asking me for my proof and I refer to the scriptures. You refer to the Creed and other man-made documents to support your argument.

ML said: "Please!!! I have offered so many verses of scripture you have not responded to and addressed all the verse you provide to show that they speak to one nature or the other but do not prove the two natures cannot exist together."

Then you did not read my response. The scriptures you offered concern a "post-easter", or resurrected Jesus, who had been elevated to a higher position than the "pre-easter", or human Jesus.

I'll repost it here for you (originally posted under "What does your faith tell you?"

Since the discussion of the deity of Jesus comes down to “words” and their meanings it may prove very useful to see how those “words” are understood and used in scripture.
The following is excerpts from E.W. Bullinger’s “A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament”.
“Kurios = lord, principle ruler; He who assumes and exercises the power
As a name for God, it is used as predicated of Him, or when He is addressed or spoken of

As a name for Christ, because He stands in the same relation to us as God. But while kurios is used a translation of JEHOVAH, the name Jehovah is never applied to Christ, and when kurios is applied to God in the N.T. Jehovah is the word quoted or referenced to from the O.T. Also, when kurios is applied to Christ, it is specifically and directly explained in the O.T. as in Psalm 110:1 “Jehovah said unto Adonai”, o Kurios tw kurw (Acts: 2:34).

In the Gospels kurios usually signifies God, while in the Epistles it generally refers to Christ, and denotes His position of Master in relation to His people, as He who has ownership and authority over them. Hence, all the special and natural relationships of life are to be regarded and performed as subject to His authority.
e.g., It is “Lord’s Supper”, not the Supper of Jesus or Christ, because He who says “Do this” has the right and authority to institute and command.”

[Some will say that Jesus got this authority because He was/is God and they will use “doctrines” that have been created by men to justify their position. Their understanding of scripture is tainted by their adherence to these doctrines and the desire to understand the meaning of scripture in light of the doctrine of the church.
Others will say that He obtained this authority after His resurrection because God bestowed it upon Him.
1 Cor 11:3 – “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the Head of Christ is God.”
2 Cor 13:4 – “For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.”
John 14:10 – “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.”
John 14:28 – “You have heard Me say to you; ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me you would rejoice because I said ‘I am going to the Father’, for My Father is greater than I.”
Phil 2: 8-11 – “And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess the Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ]

Now to further examine words from E.W. Bullinger’s “A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament”.

“Christ – anointed; Septuagint for MESSIAH, a term applied to everyone anointed with the holy oil; chiefly to the High Priest. It is used in the TARGUN to designate the expected Savior, as the anointed of God, to be the King and Redeemer of His people.
King denotes His relationship to the people and sphere of dominion
Christos [Christ] expresses the source of this relationship as one of divine ordination.

Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit – God’s Spirit
pnema – the wind, the breath breathed forth, the element of life
Spirit – the life-principle springing from God which manifests itself creatively, equipping Christ; and accomplishing God’s saving work in man. (Personality belongs to the Spirit in the same manner as to the Son (Matt 28:19); and the operation of the Spirit must be referred to the Holy Spirit as the agent who accomplishes in and for man the work of divine redemption.
John 4:24 – “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and truth.”
1 Cor 3:16 – “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”
: as the source of life in all its manifestations

Jesus is the title of His humiliation. Whenever it occurs alone it brings us before the One who “humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” It is the personal name of the “Man of Sorrows”, who suffered being incarnate, and died being man. “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name.” Thus “Christ” becomes the name of His changed position, as raised from the dead, and exalted in glory. “Christ” (in the Epistles) as denoting one position, blessing, and standing before God; e.g., “in Christ” (never in Jesus). “The Christ” (with the genitive article in the Gospels) as the official designation of the One offered to Israel, for their then, but now future blessing). Hence in the Gospels (the record of His earthly life) “Jesus” occurs alone 566 times, while “Christ” or “the Christ” occurs only 36 times. On the other hand, in the Acts and Epistles “Jesus” occurs alone only 29 times (16 of which are in the Acts, as being the transitional testimony to the Crucified One), while “Christ” occurs 217 times.
The combination of “Jesus Christ” seems to place the emphasis on Jesus as “the humbled one now glorified” while “Christ Jesus” marks Him as “the now glorified One who was once humbled.” The combination with “Lord” (“the Lord Jesus Christ”) marks His authority and power. For “God hath made that same Jesus … both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:36)”

As these word studies show there is a definitive difference in the way Jesus was referred to pre-Easter (before His death and resurrection) and post-Easter (after His resurrection). That same understanding is shown in the scriptures and also is related in our profession of faith. As sinners separated from God by sin we profess that when we come to God with a contrite heart and confess our sins “He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Then “there is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit” (Rom 8:1).

Gal 3:25 – 4:7 tells us that once we are baptized in the anointing (Christ) we live by faith, not the dictates of any law or denominational decree, but by the leadership of the Holy Spirit as God’s children with the same rights, privileges, and responsibilities as Jesus. Jesus demonstrated that it is possible to live in a way that pleases God. He is the perfect example for us to be guided by. This is the power of God working through His creation, that we humble ourselves to His Spirit and leadership trusting completely in God.

To declare that Jesus was God walking earth would indicate that He was different from birth and yet “even His brothers did not believe in Him” (John 7:5). Even the community where He grew up did not recognize Him to be anything special. After His baptism when He returned to the synagogue that He grew up in He read the prophecy of Isaiah which declared that “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel …” (Luke 4: 16-29). After His announcement He compared Himself to both Elijah and Elisha (the 2 great prophets of Israel) and the towns folk wanted to throw Him off a cliff. Had He been special, or different from any other Jewish child that grew up in that community, it would follow that He would have been noticed. However, the first thing that the people said was “Is this not Joseph’s son?” (Luke 4:22).

The doctrine of the Trinity declares that God had to come to earth to fulfill the role He created for His most prized creation. Humans were created in the image of God for the purpose of living in dominion of all other created things. Joshua demonstrated that he could command the sun and moon (Joshua 10:12-13). Just as Jesus demonstrated He could command the wind to be calm, Joshua demonstrated that he could control the elements as well.

Many of the miracles Jesus did were done by others. Elijah raised from the dead the young boy of the widow. He caused oil to perpetually reproduce, and the rain to not fall or to fall at his command. Throughout the O.T. the “miracles” were done by those who lived for God.

Hebrews 11 tells of those who lived by faith and did amazing things. “Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. You have not yet resisted unto bloodshed, striving against sin.” (Hebrews 12:1-4). The writer of Hebrews seems to agree that we are to live as those who lived for God did. We are to be imitators of Jesus empowered by the same Spirit He was – the Holy Spirit of God.