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Discussions on Jesus (combining Was Jesus God & Jesus in the Bread)

Loutzenhiser's picture

Both these threads are covering about the same territory now and getting long again. Continue both threads here.

michael_legna's picture

Sorry your claims just don't have any support.

duu1der said -
Even when God assumes the form of smoke, a donkey, or whatever, He can be no less than God. Jesus can, therefore, He cannot be God.

ML said: "No it is no different, God can be smoke and choose not to act like He is God and yet still be God. He can choose to be fully man and fully God at the same time and choose to act like man and not to act like God."

duu1der said -
Just because God does not CHOSE to act as God does in no way diminish the fact that He is still God. He has always been and will always be God.

ML said: "Which is exactly what I said."

duu1der said -
That is exactly why Jesus cannot be both at the same time.

ML said:"Huh? That makes no sense because the fact that God can choose to not act like God is precisely the reason your arguments do not prove that Jesus was not God. In other words Jesus could be God and could choose not to act like He is God and there by appear to man only, and satisfy all your issues"

duu1der said -
Wrong. Here's the equation that doesn't work.

God is God. He will always be God and therefore can be nothing else but God. Jesus cannot be God since God cannot be tempted by sin.

But man can be tempted by sin and if Jesus is both fully man and fully God and God does not choose to act like God (as we agreed He is capable of doing) then His divine nature would not step in and prevent His human nature from falling to temptation. Thus Jesus not sinning was all the work of His human nature and there was no cheating by relying on His divine nature as you think would deny His role as our savior.

duu1der said -
Whether, as you say, God can chose to not act like God, in effect pulling the wool of humanities eyes, He is still God and thus cannot be tempted by the devil like the rest of humanity.

But the divine nature was not tempted, it was the human nature which was tempted. So no problem here.

duu1der said -
"Who, in the days of His [Jesus] flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him [God] who was able to save Him [Jesus] from death, and was heard because of His godly fear. Though He was a Son, yet He LEARNED OBEDIENCE BY THE THINGS HE SUFFERED. AND HAVING BEEN PERFECTED, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek" (Heb 5:7-10).

Yep sounds just like the human nature of Jesus and no reliance on His divine nature was necessary.

duu1der said -
Now you are going to tell me that Jesus had two natures, but, if both natures can operate independently then God is 2, not 1;

No they operate independently because one nature was not divine and the other was, so not need to split off His divine nature from the rest of the Trinity - it was still operating in accord with the Persons of the Father and Holy Spirit.

duu1der said -
further, if Jesus is God, and can be no less than God, then both natures are God.

We have been over this before too - His human nature being human was less than God, His divine nature being God was of course equal to God. The fact that the two natures existed in Jesus does not mean God was lessened by this unless you want to claim to be able to limit the almighty in some way by holding Him to your human logic and denying miracles.

duu1der said -
And that is where the Trinity falls apart. Jesus could not be God and face all trials and temptations as human, without being less than God.

No Jesus could not face all trials and temptations as human, without one of His natures being less than God. But since He has two natures that is no problem.You keep claiming this but you do not support it with Scripture nor do you show how to explain how the word became flesh (not possessed flesh) and how all those things I showed you (which were each done by all three Persons of the Trinity does not prove they are the same God)

duu1der said -
Then a voice came from heaven, 'You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' Immediately the Spirit drove Him into the wilderness" (Mark 1:9-12).

Yes when Jesus was baptized even though John the Baptist knew this was unnecessary (another point I made earlier you have not responded to) God was pleased with this act of obedience of His human nature.

duu1der said -
God announced from heaven TO Jesus that He was God's Son AFTER His baptism,

But Jesus declared Himself the Father's son much earlier that that in the Temple.