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Discussions on Jesus (combining Was Jesus God & Jesus in the Bread)

Loutzenhiser's picture

Both these threads are covering about the same territory now and getting long again. Continue both threads here.

duu1der's picture

Jesus is God-Rebuttal to ML

duu1der said -
Even when God assumes the form of smoke, a donkey, or whatever, He can be no less than God. Jesus can, therefore, He cannot be God.

ML said: "No it is no different, God can be smoke and choose not to act like He is God and yet still be God. He can choose to be fully man and fully God at the same time and choose to act like man and not to act like God."

duu1der said -
Just because God does not CHOSE to act as God does in no way diminish the fact that He is still God. He has always been and will always be God.

ML said: "Which is exactly what I said."

duu1der said -
That is exactly why Jesus cannot be both at the same time.

ML said:"Huh? That makes no sense because the fact that God can choose to not act like God is precisely the reason your arguments do not prove that Jesus was not God. In other words Jesus could be God and could choose not to act like He is God and there by appear to man only, and satisfy all your issues"

Wrong. Here's the equation that doesn't work.
God is God. He will always be God and therefore can be nothing else but God. Jesus cannot be God since God cannot be tempted by sin. Whether, as you say, God can chose to not act like God, in effect pulling the wool of humanities eyes, He is still God and thus cannot be tempted by the devil like the rest of humanity.
"Who, in the days of His [Jesus] flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him [God] who was able to save Him [Jesus] from death, and was heard because of His godly fear. Though He was a Son, yet He LEARNED OBEDIENCE BY THE THINGS HE SUFFERED. AND HAVING BEEN PERFECTED, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek" (Heb 5:7-10).

Now you are going to tell me that Jesus had two natures, but, if both natures can operate independently then God is 2, not 1; further, if Jesus is God, and can be no less than God, then both natures are God.

And that is where the Trinity falls apart. Jesus could not be God and face all trials and temptations as human, without being less than God.

The image of Jesus in the scripture is that He was fully and merely human on earth until He was enpowered by the Holy Spirit at His baptism when "it came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. Then a voice came from heaven, 'You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' Immediately the Spirit drove Him into the wilderness" (Mark 1:9-12).
God announced from heaven TO Jesus that He was God's Son AFTER His baptism, just as scripture declares that all become God's children if they accept the salvation bought by the blood of Jesus through His death and resurrection. The Holy Spirit also demonstrates the power to control Jesus by exerting His authority and driving Him into the
wilderness. Since the Spirit "drove" Him, (and I don't mean in a blue Accord), by exerting power over Jesus, not through mutual agreement, since "drove" indicates control.

Jesus demonstrates, through His life, death, and resurrection, exactly what God expects of all His children - complete submission to God. That is the point that most Christians miss since they believe "Jesus was God and can do what I can't, therefore, I am just a worthless worm that has to grovel at the foot of the cross to ensure I have been saved". They fail to realize that Jesus died once for all and for all time, so that salvation has come to all mankind and is available for them to accept. Once we accept by faith the grace that God has shown us, then we will begin to live as His children who are sealed by the Holy Spirit, which is God. When we realize that we have been empowered the same way Jesus was then maybe we will be able to defeat the devil and recognize that "Christians" are ONE BODY, rather than arguing over words.