Loutzenhiser's picture

* "Transubstantiation" — the substance (fundamental reality) of the bread and wine is transformed in a way beyond human comprehension into that of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, but the accidents (physical traits, including chemical properties) of the bread and wine remain; this view is that taught by the Roman Catholic Church and by the Eastern Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem, and is held by many Anglicans, especially in Anglo-Catholic circles.
* "In, with and under the forms" — the body and blood of Jesus Christ are substantially present in, with and under the substance of the bread and wine, which remain. This is the view held by most Lutherans, and some Anglicans. Lutherans and non-Lutherans refer to this view as 'consubstantiation'. Although, for some, this term is difficult to understand, it remains the confessed understanding of the Lutheran faith.
* "Objective reality, but pious silence about technicalities" — the view of all the ancient Churches of the East, (including the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Catholic Churches) and the Assyrian Church of the East as well as perhaps most Anglicans. These, while agreeing with the Roman Catholic belief that the sacrament is not merely bread and wine but truly the body and blood of Christ, and having historically employed the "substance" and "accidents" terminology to explain what is changed in the transformation, usually avoid this terminology, lest they seem to scrutize the technicalities of the manner in which the transformation occurs.
* "Real Spiritual presence", also called "pneumatic presence", holds that not only the Spirit of Christ, but also the true body and blood of Jesus Christ (hence "real"), are received by the sovereign, mysterious, and miraculous power of the Holy Spirit (hence "spiritual"), but only by those partakers who have faith. This view approaches the "pious silence" view in its unwillingness to specify how the Holy Spirit makes Christ present, but positively excludes not just symbolism but also trans- and con-substantiation. It is also known as the "mystical presence" view, and is held by most Reformed Christians, such as Presbyterians, as well as some Methodists and some Anglicans, particularly Low Church Reformed Anglicans. See Westminster Confession of Faith, ch. 29. This understanding is often called "receptionism". Some argue that this view can be seen as being suggested — though not by any means clearly — by the "invocation" of the Anglican Rite as found in the American Book of Common Prayer, 1928 and earlier and in Rite I of the American BCP of 1979 as well as in other Anglican formularies:

And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to hear us, and of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to bless and sanctify, with thy Word and Holy Spirit, these thy gifts and creatures of bread and wine; that we, receiving them according to thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ's holy institution, in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers of his most blessed body and blood.

* "Symbolism" — the bread and wine are symbolic of the body and blood of Jesus Christ, and in partaking of the elements the believer commemorates the sacrificial death of Christ. This view is also known as "memorialism" and "Zwinglianism" after Ulrich Zwingli and is held by several Protestant and Latter-day Saint denominations, including most Baptists.
* "Suspension" — the partaking of the bread and wine was not intended to be a perpetual ordinance, or was not to be taken as a religious rite or ceremony (also known as adeipnonism, meaning "no supper" or "no meal"). This is the view of Quakers and the Salvation Army, as well as the hyperdispensationalist positions of E. W. Bullinger, Cornelius R. Stam, and others.

What is your position on this subject and how do you support it scripturally?

Mike Kirby's picture

Hi Lisa

Hi Lisa,

Once again welcome!

Lisa said,

Hi - My name is Lisa. I'm from Massachusetts - a single mom of a fiesty teen.

Mike says,

I am just a little North of you in Ontario. My wife and I have raised 4 children and yes, teens can be "fiesty". The Word says "Love never fails". That truth got us thru many trials and our kids do testify that it was that truth being fleshed out in our lives that allowed the "fire of the Holy Ghost" to burn out the desires of the flesh! We now have 4 grandchildren and know a little better than we did the first time around. Thanks to the Word and the Lord! Still, Love never fails!

Lisa said,

You say that you were "preached to" at age 29 by someone of a Protestant denomination,

Mikes says,

I never said they were protestant, I said they were non RC.
They were simply christians who believed in testifying to the saving grace of Jesus. Protestant is a label that doesn't mean much. I think that we can both agree that there are many in the RC institution that would qualify as "protestant" Don't assume that a non RC is protestant or even that a RC is not protestant. Beliefs are in the heart, not in the adherance of an institution

Lisa said,

and lapsed from your Roman Catholic faith, and have renounced the sacraments?

Mike says,

Once again, you are making an assumption. I never had faith in RCism. I was raised in it and "did the sacraments" without any faith whatsoever. To renounce the sacraments, I suppose that I would have had to announce them at one time or another. I never did.

Lisa said,

And so you are seriously asking if the "anathemas" of the Council of Trent apply to you? The anathemas applied to those who denied the validity of the True Presence of the actual Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in the Eucharist at Mass. If you do - then it applies - no matter who you are.

Mike says,

Then you have a different interpretation of what the council is saying than Michael Legna (RC)does.

Lisa said,
(I suppose) Is this a trick question?

Mike says,

No it wasn't a trick question. I just wanted Michael to be specific in his interpretation of the council's decision.

Lisa said,

I never understood the concept of leaving the Church to have a "personal relationship with Jesus" - Jesus is by my side all the time. I think I have a pretty darn "personal" relationship with Him all the time - he's heart of my heart, center of my being. I don't have to walk away from the sacraments He gave us to be closer to him, or the Church he founded to .... well... each to his own.

Mike says,

Because Jesus Christ touched me outside the context of RCism doesn't invalidate your personal walk with Him.
I got saved in a General Motors factory. That also doesn't mean that Jesus can only work in the context of factory life.
No need to get defensive because Jesus can manifest Himself wherever He pleases.

Lisa said,

I really think that applies to people who actually knew what the Eucharist was - and then deny the reality of it. See how that works? So.... maybe it doesn't actually apply to you. Only you and the Lord actually know the answer to that question, I guess.

Mike says,

So which is it Lisa?
At the top of the post you said
"The anathemas applied to those who denied the validity of the True Presence of the actual Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, in the Eucharist at Mass. If you do - then it applies - no matter who you are.

A child's understanding of the eucharist is ... let's say for the sake of argument and using depth as an analogy
1 inch deep.
Your understanding may be 1 foot deep.
Pope Benedict's understanding may be one yard deep.

Benedict's understanding doesn't invalidate yours or the childs or even mine.

We all have an interpretation of God's Word, even RC's.
I agree with some things that RC teaches and that is true of RCs as well.
Michael Legna said that the pope is going to address the idea of "cafeteria catholics" in his visit to the US. I do like the way that Benedict is articulating the RCism. He is much more specific that the previous pope.
I don't always agree with his views but at least everybody knows better where he stands.

Personnally, I believe that Jesus Christ is the "Way, the Truth and the Life and No one can come to the Father except thru Him."

Pronouncing anathemas (and supporting them) are weighty things because of the promise God gave to Abraham that is ours thru Christ Jesus. "I will curse him that curses you".
Genesis 12:3

Whatever your interpretation of the anathemas are, the anathema may fall on your own head because of that promise (Genesis 12:3)that Jesus reiterated over and over and over again.

I love (agape) you and have no desire to see ill come upon you. I believe God's will for all of us thru Christ is as
Jesus said "Love your neighbor as yourself"

so... after all I've written in this post and others, would you say that I am not a member of the body of Christ?

"For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?" 1Cor 3:4

God bless you Lisa!

Holiness isn't measured by the distance you keep from the world and it's ways ...
it's measured by your nearness to God"

"Divine Grace is not opposed to effort ...
it is opposed to earning "
— Dallas Willard